Dave, you hit the nail right on the head, but I do we have to have a program that takes away the skills of Design? I did not create any 3D drawings in version 12, but did 50% of a major defense project in 3D with "good old release 14". The process of 3D creation, and my limited timeline, made me think 2 steps ahead, made work a joy, and ultimately shaved many, many months off the project. I am an advocate of AutoCAD, even if it's 3D capabilities are somewhat primitave to other CAD programs around. I have tried others, but have found the learning curve longer than I would consider acceptable. Given one had the time and backing, these programs are great and worth the investment, but are not suitable for a lot of work I do. My revelation came early last year when I teamed up with an Engineer/Designer who had created or adopted countless LISP routines and was working solely with them and keyboard shortcuts. Result - as fast as other parametric programs, if not faster, as exacting in tolerancing and easy to learn and use (one only has to have a "designing" mind). On top of that, all AutoCAD seats could open the drawings, even the models. Clients liked what they saw, as they could be walked through the model, and with a simple LISP routine, 2D "parts" for detailing can be created. I have always had a satisfactory result from the Autodesk product I have used, and at the price I think it is great value. All one needs to achieve is to "think outside the square". My View Richard